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My guest is the most legendary curator of men’s dating advice content, and certainly the OG impresario for men’s PUA conferences. I’m talking about my returning guest Clifford Lee of Cliffslist fame, of course, who was certainly instrumental in the launch of my own career as a dating coach.

Perhaps amazingly, even in the year 2024–a time when anyone under age 38 probably has no idea who Neil Strauss is–Cliff remains one of the top organizers of pickup and seduction content for men. To the shock of some, Cliff has never deviated from his commitment to publish the ideas and teachings of various different ‘dating gurus’, often resulting in a wide-ranging or even conflicting points of view.

That makes him the perfect co-host for this particularly interesting discussion on what happened to the so-called ‘Seduction Community’, aka the ‘Underground Society of Pickup Artists’. For the past decade or so, it’s as if the idea of seduction itself has fallen out of style. So, is it that none of those ideas and tactics ever worked at all, or is seduction’s somewhat tarnished image worth restoring?

We kick things off by talking about the sense of community between men BITD compared to the decidedly negative victimhood vibe nowadays. What should men who are genuinely interested in getting better with women to do?

And to that end, where does Cliff draw the line insofar as ethics and integrity relative to what tactics work to attract women and get guys ‘laid’? Clearly, the shady stuff drew shady people…which led to the bad rap. Well, the plain truth is women LOVE to be seduced, so we as good, decent men have got to do SOMETHING.

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